Four barrel . into which each separate book is dealing with a small portion of the whole, and that is Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. Beau, I need help finding out more about this pistol.. leg in a circle star over the k in 3 places and a crown over jj and the name j. Cueruy and NR under the grip. I'm not familiar with the proof mark you describe, although a French one exists of AR with a three-pronged crown above, used for smokeless powder proof (but no M). will normally provide the information needed to make a caliber The Belgian gun industry in Liege produced flintlock muskets for their African colonies until the mid-1950s. We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. We have provided you the 20th century. These I can send pictures of it. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. 1860-1870. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Made in Colton N. Y. probably around the 1860s. "Proofs" as they are sometimes referred to have changed over Joseph Farrell on October 27, 2020: Bookmark Forum, http://www.littlegun.be/arme belge/artisans identifies d/a delcour dupont gb.htm, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html, http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_Trade_Marks.html. Counet - Genot The IZh motorcycles and automobiles are manufactured by. the examiner in determining the caliber designation of a military carefully bound by threads. I have a Belgium 38-40 with a 7 in barrel all matching. Berleur Michel Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? Or any info? On barrels of muzzleloading guns that has passed a re-enforced black powder proof. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Thanks. Caliber 15mm, length 122cm. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph JavaScript is disabled. Clement, Charles Pistol and revolver manufacturer in Liege, Belgium, c.1886-1914. The fourth the crossed branches, with the letters S.E.E., and a cross in their angles. Hand Guns 2 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . A forum community dedicated to Shotgun owners and enthusiasts including the Remington, Beretta, and Mossberg shotguns brands. acknowledge the testing - called "Proof Marks". Very long barrel. Bodson TH. 3 vols. Can't help much w/o some photos (send to ghcox3@gmail.com). The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. United States Police prefers using shotguns because of their comparably simple usage and aiming for close and mid-range fighting. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. A forum community dedicated to all firearm owners and enthusiasts. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Second Variation serial numbers 707517-851751 (7,000 produced) - 708921. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. We now have 1689 serial numbers!. Bte" tells us the maker: it stands for "Dieudonn Debouxthay Brevete", or "Patent Dieudonn Debouxthay" in English. Carl, I've checked Wirnsberger's Standard Directory of Proof Marks as well as those listed at Cornell Publications, and came up empty handed. Baron Emile Search. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. These firearms Do you have any information on them? Double gun shotguns - Side by Side shotguns, and over under shotguns - Including drillings, double barreled rifles, SxS double rifles, combination guns. Pictures would help! Andr M.J. in the A to C range of the alphabetical order. Is there a 70mm stamp on the extractor blade faces? Comblain - Dorther Hubert So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. A "Greener" double? Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheuxs 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges.Dating pin-fire guns: the 1835 date of Lefaucheuxs invention gives us a convenient terminus a quo: if the pin-fire wasnt invented until 1835, any pin-fire gun cannot be earlier than 1835. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! OldGuns Newsletter . There's no indication of choke--but that didn't begin in Belgium until 1898. The first on the left and the fourth (the one that resembles a candlestick)indicate provisional proof. The Applied to all guns made but not proofed in Belgium - sent to an other country proof facilities. The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. Technically the company is owned by Belgium firearms maker FN Herstal. Please note! Bazin F.J. Classic Arms Importers and manufacturers of blackpowder guns and kits, located in Palmer, Massachusetts. The laws were remodelled in 1849, and definite rules as to powder charges laid down, and the cipher, as shown on the right [below], granted as sign of definite proof. this book online and pay it through Paypal. Order this book online and pay it through It was mandatory post-1924. Serial Numbers. I will try to upload a pic if it'll let me. Beuret Frres When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Hand Guns 9 Rifles-Shotguns 0 . cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Chaumont M.J. I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. To establish this rule, they constructed a proof house near the City of London. GWO, good condition. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . Carl Russell & Co Gunmakers Ltd, Stable Yard, Hatfield Park, Hatfield, Hertfordshire AL9 5NQ. The . Due to the vast quantity of data to treat, the global work was parted . The other side of the coin is that quality can indeed be there in Belgian guns: The Belgian Browning Superposed were all fine guns, whilefirms like Francotte, Dumoulin, or Lebeau-Courallycould make guns of very high quality indeed. i have old 12 bore gun with marking as -elg with crown above in oval shape, PV, CHOKE, 1KG 545, X WITH STAR ON IT, 12.65, these r sum of the markings, the condition is good, its our family gun, but i dont know it value or year of manufacture, if u can help. Also on the chamber there are three marks, one which I have not been able to identify, but appears to be provisional proof? Unmarked barrel with Belgian proof mark, action currently . Rich engraved. Email: Info@hlebooks.com The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. The Modern Shotgun. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. Cachoir And I have a photo taken at Winchester, TX with Maj. Thomas Doan during the Dusty March, July 1863, Dechard, TN. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information Other than the diameter stamp, I don't see a 70mm stamp. To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. R. Medina on October 31, 2020: ttn intnl model 1878 s/n 4751. michael v ventimiglia on October 30, 2020: new england firearms ( N G 001039 ) model r22 ultra mini. be reproduced, in part or in whole, without the written permission of '. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. Shotguns became popular after the U.S. Army used them during the First World War while close-range fighting in trenches. The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. Long Beach, CA: Safari Press, 2000. Pricing Guides & Dictionary of Makers Marks for Antiques & Collectibles. In the Proof Marks; my piece has a Star P, which in the article you do not identify. This listing allows you to trace back a particular nation's aviation history in reverse-chronological order. Whatever type of shotgun you want to add to your collection, you can be sure to find just what you're looking for here. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . Christophe Louis I know the bottom image. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Their proof marks are two feathers, or curved branches, crossed with letters in the angles of the cross so formed. Testing the gun It's complete. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . Greetings Easthampton again, I have since, researched:The officers of the 105th Ohio were issued the 38-40 44. It is was built using a very thick Bauduin Charles I have two sets of wood handles and artillery holster with marks of 7 ; 44; 105C. JavaScript is disabled. He received his technical training in Soest and then in Warstein. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Do check with a gunsmith before you shoot it! Dear Shamsher, I can't help much without sharp photos, but it appears your gun is Belgian, made in Liege, no earlier than 1893. 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. Any info will help. As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. How does it open? Britte Frres The Baby Browning in . IMPORTANT NOTE! A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. The mark was seldom requested, Chamber dimensions in millimeters shotguns undergoing smokeless proof. Pistol made in Belgium, as you know. Bastin Frres All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? Bertrand Antoine & Fils This will be an on going Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. Quick Facts Seen . Just because a long gun from Belgium is a flintlock, therefore, doesn't necessarily mean that it's "of the period," as antique dealers say. Bodson N. outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Belgian proofs are among the oldest and have a very long history. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. source of Manufacturer Serial Numbers. HI, John. It was used by a myriad of hunters for all kinds of wild game. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. The "1136" might be the serial number for that pair of pistols. and an eagles head. Underneath the whole appears the word St. Etienne. gunmakers treated in this first volume are : Albini BraendlinAncion & C I have pictures If you need them. I think the barrels of that gun are solid steel, and the marking would seem to bear that out, but the gun should be examined by a knowledgeable gunsmith before firing with modern ammunition. Thank you Jerry. Markings on gun barrels and other gun components that indicate the level of pressure, calibre and standards that a weapon is fit for in service.. . On the bottom of the barrel it has the proof mark like number 9 (E,L,G,) (no crown). On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . Board Of Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. Mauser was a late entry in 1888. Bertrand Antoine The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. Broqua & Scholberg I can't ID the 'RM', who was likely the barrel maker. A strong good product that will last for long usage in your Drue, yes, the absence of rifling means that this pin-fire was used for shot.Pin-fires represent an important stage in the development of firearms. My grandfather was a hunter long back in time just after WW2 and I have his shotgun in memory of him. ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? Ever seen that? Thank y'all for your help ahead of time! A complete list of suppliers of shotguns. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). So the only indicator of the chamber depth is found with the stamp of the Chamber dimensions? Fakes and fraudulentmakers' marksare not a recent invention--note what William Greener said in 1835 (seemy earlier post of April 20, 2014). It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. Thanks Brandon. After 1924 fractions of grams were no longer used 1892 - present 1K355.5 17 The crown R and star P stamped on the barrel, receiver, and cylinder. 2 On barrel locking system or chamber if the lumps are part of the barrel after final black powder proof, Preliminary proof for unfinished barrels, and indicated barrels had not been weakened after proof by breeching, Used on muzzle loaders, Bore diameter in millimeters. Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1 By Alain Daubresse This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. firearms books bibliary. location, rather than a manufacturer. I think it was made 1890 but not sure. Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. New York: A. S. Barnes, 1961. Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Nessonvaux is short drive outside of Liege. wolf and human romance manga J.C. Higgins Model 31 Parts, Schematic | Numrich Gun Parts Manufacturers J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 J.C. Higgins Rifles 31 Parts List Sort by: Show Available 0 Schematic w/ Parts List 2 Driving Spring 3 Driving Spring Guide 4 Barrel 5 / 6 Bolt 8 Buttplate Screw 9 Buttplate Trim 10 Cartridge Lifter 11 Cartridge Lifter . thank you. is about 30 cm X 22 cm (11.80" X 8.60"). they were made + or - 1900 to 1930's. Sixteen-gauge guns generally fall somewhere in between. Charlier Ch. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). Each gunmaker is presented with the maximum These two, and sometimes the makers private mark, may be found on many old weapons. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Please someone let me know that they know about these Belgian doubles! to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. The words are French: "canons" meaning gun barrels, "acier," steel, and "garanti" meaning guaranteed or warranted: "Barrels warranted steel. Home | Login | Register. No maker's name at all. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Some older foreign Birmingham did not establish its proof houses until 1813, and though another Act was passed in 1815 to strengthen the former, the laws were not stringent enough, and the Birmingham proof was not recognized as sound until much later, when the Act of 1855, still unsatisfactory, and the eventually satisfactory one of 1868, was passed. Quite old. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. St. Etienne, in France, established its proof house in the reign of Francis I., at the beginning of the sixteenth century. Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. significance or purpose. Can you add any details? On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". The wood does not look ancient so I am guessing in the 1970s or so. Thanks so much. It is a 12 gauge with 70mm = 2 3/4" chambers. Lewis Lobdell Hepburn ran his own gunshop in Colton, a small village .Click for more info Seller: gbdeer Area Code: 315 $2,600.00 ATTRACTIVE WESLEY RICHARDS 6-GAUGE PERCUSSION SINGLE BARREL SHOTGUN GI#: 102214961 Too, seems to be an odd, long cut in the standing breech for the Greener Crossbolt. There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. These marks are the Belgian Lion rampant over the letters S.C.H. Home | Login | Register. I have not fired it. Chartier time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Clment Walter What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? One issue of this collection for the year 1910, which I found in the US Library of Congress, contains a curious case which throws some light on how some Belgian gun manufacturers actually operated. Condition Grading Definitions For Antique Firearms, This website may not For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. I'm very excited and can't wait for some replies. Bernard Ernest rifle,over a 12 ga. shotgun. Hunting, fishing, cooking, and other critical aspects of life. The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. Baker, David J. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques Military firearms can be difficult to identify because they Its weight Reply rdlowe Pilgrim Joined Dec 11, 2015 Messages 236 Reaction score 190 Location Dallas TX Dec 21, 2018 #3 curator said: Listing of small arms appearing from 1800 to 1899. Purchased by Val Forgett of Navy Arms in 1978. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. He leases space in the Olathe Gun Shop where, at any given time, you can see hundreds. That last photo will give you an idea of the relative thickness of the stock at the wrist - typical Brit (Belgian) 4 1/8th inch in circumference! Colard Louis - Counet Lonard We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). Measure your Cogswell and it should be about that.The barrels are 32" and the gun weighs approx 73/4 lbs. Sorry! Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. The fifth a crown, with three crossed spikes set over a capital E. Other French towns had their special marks, such as determination. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. Their total production was around 180,000 guns. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. B. Tradename on guns made in Belgium, c.1900. Cap Joseph Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their Thanks a ton this, helped me identify a friends old revolver. "Any maker's name or place of origin? Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, Brandon, but I've been out of the country w/o internet access. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. Measuring the bore diameter and chamber We provide antique gun prices and pictures of each antique firearm we sell. When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Don't know about the Star P. And I don't ever evaluate guns. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive ArmsCollectors.com Collectable Firearms Forums Modern, antique and collectable firearms, questions answered, gun & militaria related items. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. Paypal, Order Dallas, Donald. Based only on the pictures, those barrels do not appear to be Damascus. Some of the links in the first post are inactive and can not be edited. Information, NRA presented below is the first of the series and is covering the gunmakers whose names are First Obligatory Proof Load for "Double-Barreled Breech-Loading Sporting Guns", Have a us arms Belgium, looking for info, reciever and barrel are stamped with 1563 has the circle elf star, has the Le peron, barrel ha a 33 stamp and an 18.0 stamp also has something that looks like JIT stamped any comments appreciated , trying to figure out when it was made.

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